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User talk:Sannse
Deleted nude painting This is continued from http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:841770 I know you're only doing your job. I remember you were really helpful in http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com back before wikia started all the censorship. I remember when I and some others had to fight to get an image removed of Mohammed with a male member in his mouth. Nothing short of that was controversial back then, and I don't think wikia staff even did anything about it. It was solved internally. I've been away from wikia for a few years so am really confused at the changes. I posted an image of a man's chest and a staff member removed it. It was in the artiicle Go Topless Day which is a movement that there's no good reason a man can show his chest and a woman can't. The man had gynecomastia which is male breasts. I told the staff member about it and even linked to the wiki commons source when the man gave permission for it to be used. The image was used on about two dozen wikipedia's in different languages about gynecomastia, and the staff member still said the chest looked too much like a woman's. Now I hear that old nude paintings can be OK, but new ones aren't. I don't understand. How old does a painting have to be to be OK? And why are old artists OK and new ones aren't? I know you said this isn't an academic site and of course a whole lot of it isn't. But the Gypsie Skripto article is about a real artist who usually paints nudes. None of the images had anything sexual about them, and they were artwork. So why would a nude painting be OK for an academic site and not for an article about the artist? Thank you for your help. Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 02:10, May 20, 2015 (UTC) : Hi, : I did do something about the Muhammed picture way back then, it was me that removed it and insisted it stayed removed :) In that case, the problem wasn't the depiction of the prophet, or even the disrespect towards him, but the sexual nature of the image. : I'm sure you know the classic definition of porn from the US Supreme Court: "I know it when I see it". It really expresses the difficulty in defining exactly what is and isn't over the line. We have some general guidelines: no sex acts, no nudity (including bare breasts or butts), no sexually suggestive images of children, no "outlined" genitalia (clothing is so tight that genitalia are effectively visible) and so on. Then we look at the context, and make adjustments for that. But a part of what we do is still "I know it when I see it". :Another way to put it is "what would I be okay looking at with my Grandma?". We could go to a museum and look at classical art without embarrassment. But if I were with her when she saw the images I deleted, I would be a lot less comfortable (you and your Grandma may vary ;) It's a matter of our (US/UK) culture, nudity in general is disapproved of, but specific cases like classical art get a cultural pass. But again, it depends on the context and the specific image. : Looking at the gynecomastia image, the perception there is of a woman's breasts. It's a difficult call, but unless it were in the context of a medical article on a suitable wikia, I would be inclined to delete it too. : The simple way to avoid deletions is to stay on the conservative side of things and avoid nudity. If we feel that an image is overly explicit and has nothing to give it "points" towards being kept we will have to delete it. Of course, you are always welcome to talk to us about those decisions and get a second opinion. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 20:24, May 20, 2015 (UTC) ::So you were the one who removed the Muhammed image; thank you! Really the sex part didn't bother me at all, but that's cuz at 13 I was on the Internet and saw everything. :P I'm not Muslim, but what I didn't like was that it made a lot of people upset when there really wasn't any reason for that picture to be there. The one who posted it liked posting things that p*ssed people off, and I think that's the only reason he did it. ::You said we can get a second opinion on a staff decision. Well, the staff member who deleted the gynecomastia image said I couldn't. I asked if there was an appeals process and he said there wasn't. The thread is at http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:803373. ::One of my grandmothers was a hippie so you can guess how she'd feel about it. ::Discordianism is all about challenging social norms. The first two Discordian works had nudity, cuss words, sex, a goddess instead of a god (and this in the 1950s!), etc. so it seems weird we have to be more conservative than a site that's encyclopedic. ::I understand you're doing your job and that's wikia's policy. But is there a way I can challenge that policy with wikia? I participate in Go Topless Day and I'm a PETA activist so I guess it's no surprise I believe equating nudity with sex is wrong. ::Again I'm not mad at you at all just at the policy. It almost killed Uncyclopedia and did split it into two. Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 02:37, May 21, 2015 (UTC) :::Hi Miley, :::I'm sorry I haven't got back to you yet, the last couple of days have been a bit over-full! I will do my best to reply over the weekend, or when I'm back at work on Tuesday -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:21, May 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::Sure. Don't worry about getting back when you're on a three-day weekend (I'm guessing)! :) Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 03:31, May 23, 2015 (UTC) It was indeed a three day weekend for us in the office :) I'm sorry again for the delay Okay, so... We don't have any sort of official process for second opinions, but I am offering that if you disagree with a decision. Just contact me and I'll look (or ask another staffer to look if it's my decision). I understand that the norms of Discordianism are not the same as for those of the public at large, but that's really the point. Wikia tries to find the right line for allowing expression and keeping within those public norms, and there are few areas where nudity is seen as appropriate. I have looked at this wikia and topic, and also talk to other staff, and I'm afraid I don't see this as one of them. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 19:05, May 26, 2015 (UTC) :So it's appropriate for Discordians to be made to act in accord with Puritan standards? Every classic Discordian book i know describes sex including many forms of sex acts that are illegal in America. The best known works, Principia Discordia and The Illuminatus! Trilogy (written by two Discordian Playboy magazine editors) have lots of sexual descriptions. I and Pope Hilde who's an admin here contributed to one of the best known 21st century Discordian books Ek-sen-trik-kuh Discordia: The Tales of Shamlicht which has half a dozen articles about sex and stories about sex and nudity. Two of them are written or co-written by Hilde. :The paintings I posted here were completely nonsexual and weren't nearly as explicit as what I've seen on wikia sites for video games. The Witcher game which Wikia keeps posting ads on our sites has characters who have sex and explicit images of naked women. I've seen those naked pictures on wikia. I guess if wikia is getting paid to sell sex and nudity it's OK, right? Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 03:17, May 27, 2015 (UTC) ::I do not want to sound confrontational as I appreciate us being able to have a site here. But I must admit I too wonder why Wikia's "family-friendly" policy allows realistic mages of naked men and women who practice fornication in a game for a company that sponsors Wikia and not a non-realistic painting of a topless woman in a demure pose from a group that is not a sponsor. And why would such a site want such a sponsor? I also wonder how Wikia can remain family-friendly when anyone can edit it. Pope Hilde (talk) 13:07, May 27, 2015 (UTC) :::I'm sorry if I sounded confrontational. But when Wikia doesn't allow a nonsexual, vaguely nude painting that shows a woman's breasts on this site but allows a sexual, explicit and almost photographic nude picture that shows a woman's breasts while she lies on her bed with a naked man about to have sex on a wikia site for one of Wikia's sponsors seems hypocritical. Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 02:54, May 28, 2015 (UTC) ::::I just sent the following message to wikia.com: ::::This is not just an ad that appears on the edge, it's one that surrounds the whole wiki and appears on other wikis as well. ::::Wikia staff have removed what they said violated ToU, apparently for allegedly "obscene or pornographic" images from Discordia.wikia.com that were paintings that showed topless women in nonsexual poses. Some were done in a rough painting style, so that even as quick glance they could not be mistaken for actual women. The images were used to illustrate the artist who painted them. They were less explicit than images found In many other wikia sites. ::::At the same time, Wikis is advertising the Witcher video game which features segments where a naked man seduces naked women for sex. While sexual intercourse actually occurs "off camera," the game does show the man and various women naked with realistic breasts clearly exposed, lying together right before or after sexual intercourse. The Witcher website includes many of these images. ::::While I have no objection to the images, I do not understand why a non-sexual painting of a woman with her breasts visible is removed while an image of a naked man and woman lying together with the woman's breasts clearly exposed, or a naked woman with breasts exposed and thighs spread wide apart with her crotch barely covered is acceptable. Pope Hilde (talk) 19:52, May 28, 2015 (UTC) :::::As I said above, context, the specific image, and the specific wikia can all be relevant. It's still a "know it when I see it" decision, but we try to be as fair and consistent as possible ("consistent" does not mean "the same" in this case. Again, the specific situation is a factor) :::::To try and be fair here, I've asked my boss to look at this wikia and its images. She tends to be pretty rushed, so I'm not sure when she will have time to look, but she said she would try an fit it in tomorrow -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:34, May 28, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Thanks Sannse for checking with your boss. Really understand I'm not upset with you I think you're cool. ::::::But as we mentioned on sexuality.wikia.com, "The Witcher: Wild Hunt" video game has "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Nudity, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of Alcohol" and is rated M for ages 17+. It is being advertised in four different places on the front page of peta.wikia.com where PETA is against hunting. And it's also being advertised in four different places on My Little Pony Friendship is Magic wikia which is about a TV program made for little girls. If blood and gore, intense violence, nudity, strong language, strong sexual content, use of alcohol can be marketed on a website for little girls, why can't non-sexual nudity appear on a wikia about the Discordian religion which was started by two sexual-freedom advocates (who wrote about sex with any class of human and with animals and this back in the 1950s) and a couple of Playboy editors who wrote a trilogy of extremely sexually explicit Discordian novels, and on sexuality.wikia.com which is a site about sex? Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 03:17, May 29, 2015 (UTC) I'm going to be repeating myself here, we've basically ended up with the same conversation in two places The ad is not in itself explicit and doesn't change our terms of use. As with the sex wikia, the decision is that this wikia won't be given any special permission to have explicit images, including nudity. If that means it's not possible to write about your topic, then I'll understand. It may simply be that what you are trying to create isn't compatible with Wikia. I'm sorry for the disappointing reply -- sannse (help forum | blog) 21:48, May 29, 2015 (UTC) :I know you're just doing your job. I'll leave it at that. Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 12:40, May 30, 2015 (UTC) Wikia Staff Insulting a woman user's body I know this is going to sound like the same issue but it isn't. This isn't just about Wikia's sexist policy saying men's chests are OK but women's are pornography. This is about a personal insult. Ducksoup said that a woman who sometimes edits wikia was "obviously underage.'" This is based on a painting of her made when she was an adult. She felt insulted. She wanted to know if he was implying she looked childish or her breasts were too small for a woman. I don't think he got it because he didn't apologize to her. He was very rude and hurt her feelings and I think he needs to apologize. Here's the link. http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Ducksoup Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 03:02, July 9, 2015 (UTC) :I'm sorry Miley, but you are being disingenuous here. He did not say Princess Unicornia was underage, he said that to his eyes the painting depicted an underage person. The painting is not a photograph and of course there will be a level of interpretation of the artist's work. I know he meant no offence, and was most definitely not commenting (and could not comment) on the actual age of the artist's model. :Obviously the apparent age is a subjective judgement, like many we make in this area. I made exactly the same decision earlier in the case of a painting of a pregnant nude. In this more recent case (U1.jpg) I asked some other colleagues their opinion, and the responses were very mixed. With that, and the knowledge that the model was over 18, I'm okay with it being used here. The other image seems to be seen more often as a teen (perhaps the artists treatment of the subjects and the pose make that so) so I stay with our policy of caution with anything approaching child nudity and ask that it stay deleted. Thank you. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 21:36, July 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Thank you. I really don't want to cause problems here. I will follow your advice, and will restore the second version of U1 (the first was an actual photo the subject did not want on here so I deleted it). I will not restore the pregnant nude. Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 07:00, July 10, 2015 (UTC) :: ::And Princess Unicornia, I'm sorry that you were offended, but as Sannse said: my comments were based on my perception of the artwork, and not meant in any way to relate to your actual self. Ducksoup (talk) 22:01, July 9, 2015 (UTC) :::I will make sure Princess Unicornia knows about your apology. Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 06:53, July 10, 2015 (UTC) ::Sannse, please check and make sure I did this right. I don't want to cause a problem. http://discordia.wikia.com/wiki/File:U1.jpg Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 00:39, July 11, 2015 (UTC) :::I'm sorry, I thought it was clear we were talking about the censored version. I've restored that, with a tweak to make sure the full nipple is covered. I deleted theolder versions. I'll make sure Ducksoup is aware that this version is approved. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 01:12, July 12, 2015 (UTC) ::::I'm really sorry. I thought you meant that was OK with it being a painting not a photo and her being over 18. I'm still confused why some Wikis can have paintings of breasts and even genitals and others can't. But I'll try not to break any rules. :) Miley Spears Discordian American Princess to the Stars (let's talk) 03:56, July 12, 2015 (UTC)